my son is clearly on path to be a nice guy

[Prophet]

he has shame when he does something wrong.. and tends to try to hide things sometime.s.. i am trying to release him.. but need advice!!! help!

[Winhamness]

Well I would suggest taking the lessons from NMMNG and working them in reverse.

Show him you love him, especially when he's behaving poorly.

Make sure you let him know he is ok just the way he is.

Work on the difference between accepting a behavior and accepting a person.

Show him you value what he thinks, says, does

Be PRESENT with him

And most importantly, SHOW him how to behave in an integrated manner.

Just some thoughts

[balpha]

I've posted a topic slightly relevant in the General Discussion area.

Regarding the war to prevent NGism in my kids - some insight

I just found an article with the following:

To overcome shame, a child must begin to feel loved for the very one that they are. This means a rebirth of self, of spirit, of personal and interpersonal connection. Anyone working with kids can help them overcome shame. They must be reinforced for being worthy and loveable. This needs to happen often from someone they can learn to trust. Trust is the first step, and empowerment is the second step. Kids need to feel competent and capable, and have a sense of their own healthy power. This is a long and complicated process.

First, an adult role model, mentor, teacher, or parent must take a genuine interest in the child. Then, that adult must model healthy, mature, empowered behavior. Then, the child must be encouraged to stop all shame-based and self-sabotaging behaviors. This includes faulty thinking, blaming, and impulsive acting out.

You might provide some context on how he got that way. Something happen at school? The following article might provide some insight:

Resolving the Boy Crisis in School

My guess: Spend more time with him as the primary male figure in his life. Model and encourage the appropriate behavior.

[rebirth]

Just spent a long weekend with my son who goes to grad school in a different state. We went camping and hiking and drove along the Blue Ridge Parkway. Great trip and time with him.

I began my journey when he was 19 and away at college. Unfortunately, my journey has had very little affect on him. He has a very needy girlfriend. I had dinner with him and his GF the night before we left and there was precious little time that he didn't have his arm around her or seemingly coddling her.

She called several times on the day we were returning. Told him that she had a migraine headache. I asked her if she got them often and she said that she hadn't for the last couple years. Then my son offered something like, "I guess that she got the migraine because she missed me". Uggghhhh... I told my son to think carefully about what he is saying and that he doesn't want to take responsibility for her well-being based on his choices about what he does with his time. Her health and mental state should not be tied to his presence. God.... NOOOOOOOOO.....

I don't know if he understood, but I can tell you that the time that I witnessed with him and his GF, it was very painful. A great reminder of how I failed him and how he is set up to repeat the same mistakes of his father. I feel shame and deep sadness.

[bootstrapped]

My son is 7, and I'm going to kick his azz if becomes an NG. What do I do?

-I give him lots of my time, and we do dude things together. Shoot his BB gun, turn wrenches on the cars, put on the gloves and pound the bag, etc.
-I have him in team sports. He gets to interact with other dads, and see me interact with them.
-I let him see that I F**K up. I tell him how I F'd up, and I apologize to him if it has something to do with him.
-I get physical and somewhat compete with him. We'll wrestle, race, etc.
-I let him know that it's okay to cry, and show what he's feeling.
-I show him that I'm interested in what's on his mind.
-I teach him to take no shyte from other kids, and how to stand up for himself.

That's just off the top of my head, but the main thing is proably just giving him quality time.

[Boricua]

Therapy, psych assessment for depression... two things I can think of.

Interact with his teachers more, find out how he's like at school. Find out how his peer interactions are at school, and if there's any bullying going on you may not know about.

And do not blame yourself. Instead, move forward from here and do what you can to help him not be a Nice Guy.

One of the best things you can do is lead by example. Where are you at with your own recovery? Are you being a great example of integration to him? Are you in a passionate, loving marriage with your wife?

And I like boot's suggestions as well... doing guy things with him, being silly (lightly poking fun), but also being unconditionally supportive and avoiding harsh criticism. Give him a safe environment to talk freely with you about whatever he's going through. He may surprise you and the temptation for a lot of guys is to say "stop being a wimp/wuss and suck it up." OTOH, it's also easy to become too indulgent, and not having him take responsibility for action.

[HotSummerNights]

Originally Posted by bootstrapped

My son is 7, and I'm going to kick his azz if becomes an NG. What do I do?

-I give him lots of my time, and we do dude things together. Shoot his BB gun, turn wrenches on the cars, put on the gloves and pound the bag, etc.
-I have him in team sports. He gets to interact with other dads, and see me interact with them.
-I let him see that I F**K up. I tell him how I F'd up, and I apologize to him if it has something to do with him.
-I get physical and somewhat compete with him. We'll wrestle, race, etc.
-I let him know that it's okay to cry, and show what he's feeling.
-I show him that I'm interested in what's on his mind.
-I teach him to take no shyte from other kids, and how to stand up for himself.

That's just off the top of my head, but the main thing is proably just giving him quality time.

This sounds really good.

[Phrack]

My son is a sook (the 8 year old). My other son is s bad ass - he is 18 months and he kicks my other son when he is lying on the ground sooking.

To toughen up my 8 year old I regularly wrestle him and he hates it.

I think I have to do better with my 8 y.o.

[SnapRoll]

Originally Posted by IM2010

My son is a sook (the 8 year old). My other son is s bad ass - he is 18 months and he kicks my other son when he is lying on the ground sooking.

To toughen up my 8 year old I regularly wrestle him and he hates it.

I think I have to do better with my 8 y.o.

IM, as a guy whose father used to "wrestle" with him when he was little to make "him tough", personal experience says this is a really bad idea.

My dad did it to prove he was superior to me. Pretty cool to demonstrate physical dominance over a 6 year old - right? Didn't make me tougher - just shut me down and trained me to never really fight because I was guaranteed to lose. Lots of therapy to figure that one out.

Your son will find his aggression on his own. He needs his father to support him and encourage him. You can teach him not to whine teaching him to state his needs clearly, respecting what he wants and his verbal requests, including that he doesn't want to wrestle. He will learn about boundaries by practicing establishing them at home and having them be respected. He will get used to people respecting his boundaries and will carry himself and establish them with the assumption that they will be respected. It all builds from there.

[Phrack]

SnapRoll - you have a point with the wrestling.

The thing is my 8 year old son will need a lot of work. He is smart (his teacher recently stated that he was very smart) and he is good looking. He is also a sook and lazy a lot of the times. He has the ability to go really well in life however he will have to toughen up and learn to apply himself.

It is a hard thing because he is also a good kid. I really want him to do Jiu-Jitsu because it has toughened me up so much but of course he has to find his own way in the world.

[SnapRoll]

Originally Posted by IM2010

The thing is my 8 year old son will need a lot of work. He is smart (his teacher recently stated that he was very smart) and he is good looking. He is also a sook and lazy a lot of the times. He has the ability to go really well in life however he will have to toughen up and learn to apply himself.

It is a hard thing because he is also a good kid. I really want him to do Jiu-Jitsu because it has toughened me up so much but of course he has to find his own way in the world.

My eight year old son is similar. Not a lot of fire right now. I have a twelve year old daughter who is tough as nails. They both do karate and my daughter is impressive. My son daydreams and doesn't like fighting.

I have adopted the philosophy that I am not going to be point person to teach my kids that life is hard - life will do it without my help. I try to be there to dust them off and head them back in the right direction with a smile and a "you can handle it."

I mentioned a bunch of this in another thread - this is bad when you quote yourself....but here goes:

Originally Posted by SnapRoll

.....Just like you can't control your wife, I think the parent's job is to allow a kid to take responsibility for anything they can reasonably take responsibility for. Beyond basic care, I think we parent better if we view the role as a safety officer whose duty is to try and keep our children from killing or permanently maiming themselves. Everything else is a learning experience.

Here are a couple of other things I think I know:

When I get angry with my kids, it is usually because of a trigger.

Kids tune out lectures so don't waste your breath on them.

Kids see everything you do and will follow your lead. They are a perfect mirror for integrity and authenticity, particularly if you own it when they bust you for being inconsistent.

The most important thing a kid wants from a parent is to be seen and validated for being who they are.

Kids figure things out pretty quickly and if the relationship is open, will ask for guidance when they need it. Otherwise, standby and pick up any pieces that get knocked off in the crashes and help them put them back on.

Our kids are learning about boundaries from us. They picked most of it up without conversation. We take the teaching moments to put finer points on it, but they both get it.

They learn relationships from how we treat them and each other.

Outside of our household, they are out testing our teachings in the real world. We get pretty good field test reports when stuff isn't working and we have all learned and grown.

When our kids screw up, we mostly just ask "how does that feel." They usually acknowledge "not so good." We will follow up with "what do you plan to do about it?" Sometimes they ask for help and sometimes they don't. We don't make their problems ours.

I think our job is to accept our children and help them learn for themselves who they are. Whether we think they are lazy or smart or anything else, love the hell out of them as they are. Part of NMMNG is us finding our natural gifts. I think helping our children find theirs is part of our job as parents.

One question for you - why does it matter if your son is a "snook"? I think it is easy for us as parents to see every action of our children as a reflection of our ourselves. This is a form of an emotional hose me thinks.

[Phrack]

SR,

I agree with you to a point. There is a guy at the old gym that I used to go to who has 2 sons that train. One does MMA and the younger one BJJ at this point. I said to him that I didn't believe in pushing my kids and his response was that the people that won gold medals were kids that were pushed and supported by their parents. There is something to this however at the same time you don't want to be too pushy.

As for my son being a sook. It is a character flaw that myself and my wife have to help adjust. I think that he gets this from me. My wife is tough as nails as is my daughter and I think my youngest son will be the same. My son is a great kid and truthfully we get along really well. He has to toughen up though in this regard and if I don't work on it with him I am doing him a disservice.

[Phrack]

Originally Posted by SnapRoll

Whether we think they are lazy or smart or anything else, love the hell out of them as they are. Part of NMMNG is us finding our natural gifts. I think helping our children find theirs is part of our job as parents.

Just to be clear I love all of my kids and they know it. I tell them everyday that I love them and they are great kids.

I try to keep criticism to an absolute minimum.

[SnapRoll]

Originally Posted by IM2010

.....his response was that the people that won gold medals were kids that were pushed and supported by their parents. There is something to this however at the same time you don't want to be too pushy.

Again, my experience says this is a bad idea. There are examples of people who have been pushed by their parents and succeeded. There are also beautiful examples of people who have found their own motivation and been successful with only support from their parents.

My brother and I were both very successful athletes in different sports. Both my parents pushed like hell. I was very successful, but quit relatively early because I got sick of being criticized, even when I won. My brother ended up being an All-American and turned pro, but kept choking. It was all psychological.

I have a daughter who is very gifted at music. She wanted to play an instrument at 5, so we supported the desire. She recently got into a very prestigious program for gifted kids. Whose idea? - hers. We don't make her practice, we don't make her study. We occasionally remind her of the consequences of not, but she is internalizing her own drive. It is for her after all. We support her by being chauffeur, paying for it and helping her when she asks.

She has been successful at pretty much everything she has tried in her 12 year old life so far. She knows how to turn it on and focus. She is doing it for herself - not out of fear from a parent or even for praise.

[Boyd]

Originally Posted by IM2010

SnapRoll - you have a point with the wrestling.

The thing is my 8 year old son will need a lot of work. He is smart (his teacher recently stated that he was very smart) and he is good looking. He is also a sook and lazy a lot of the times. He has the ability to go really well in life however he will have to toughen up and learn to apply himself.

It is a hard thing because he is also a good kid. I really want him to do Jiu-Jitsu because it has toughened me up so much but of course he has to find his own way in the world.

Is there another martial art he might join into, one with a good male leader who works well with pre-teen boys?

I learned plenty from my father and respect him deeply, but it was my coaches that really got through to me and inspired me, especially before I hit teen years and stopped listening to everyone

My view of martial arts at 8 years old is that it doesn't matter what style, it's the leadership and male-on-male interaction that matters for a boy. He can get into jyu jitsu later with you when he's bigger and more able to take you on, and the "other martial art training" will make JJ easier in some aspects when he gets into it.

Plus maybe he'll learn new tricks to kick your ass with, and what kid doesn't want to kick his dad's ass at something, FINALLY?

Boyd