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#301
April 26th, 2012, 11:00 AM
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By the way, looking back right now, I feel soooo much better than I did. When I came here in January, I felt like absolute garbage.
Someone said that as you do Anderson, you can sort of feel worse before you feel better. I think that as I got through it, I was still hurting because the book does help heal your wounds but in the process it really opens them up for examination. I did feel better after I finished it but I think the porn relapse might have dragged my spirits down and depleted my motivation to continue. I am trying to pinpoint why I'm feeling so much better now (perhaps a B/L Dialogue is in order) but I'm thinking the fact that I'm now a week porn-free is really helping. I think obviously the time passing, in itself is helpful. No doubt the wounds would have closed and I'd forget the Bertha thing after a few months. But in the past, this would have been expedited by going after other girls. And no doubt, that approach would have eventually led to another repeat performance and probably back where I was before, but maybe worse, with a different woman to blame. This time, I feel like the cycle will be broken, the wounds properly healed. The inner work and breaking free of porn I think is crucial. At the moment, I feel like I can continue this dating moratorium indefinitely, which is a great feeling. I feel free to work on myself without a hidden agenda. I don't expect it to last forever, something will probably set me off and make me crave women again but it's time to pick up the ball and run with it. OK, enough posting and more reading NMMNG...
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RufWarrior's Plan 
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#303
April 26th, 2012, 02:05 PM
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I already did BFA #1-4 at the beginning of this thread but I'll probably briefly go over them again for review.
I'll skip the rehash of BFA #1, but here's today's BFA #2: Breaking Free Activity #2 Why would it seem rational for a person to try to eliminate or hide certain things about himself and try to become something different unless there was a significant compelling reason for him to do so? Why do people try to change who they really are? Take some time and think about this. Is this your behavior or the behavior of someone you know? Toxic shame is a big one. Ashamed to have needs, and ashamed to have faults. We may see the person we want to be and not know how to get there. We're perfectionistic and think we should be able to do everything perfectly, today, without struggling along the way. The irony is that letting go of that and accepting our flaws will accelerate the growth we desire so badly. -- And here's what I wrote back in January: Social conditioning stemming all the way back to childhood can cause this if the habits and beliefs are not broken. We are trained to seek approval from others in order to get what we want as children. This is definitely my behavior in some (or even many) areas. As we become adults this is not usually an effective way of thinking. Generally, I should only try to change something else about myself if it comes from within; if it benefits me to do so. Edited to add (after reading chapter 2): A man might hide his flaws because it does not feel safe or acceptable to be exactly who he is. Breaking Free Activity #3 I covered this one pretty thoroughly the first time around as well as in the Anderson work. But after re-reading Chapter 2, (particularly page 28 on "Shame") the additional thing that comes to mind is the bullet point, "Mom has to do everything for me": My mom definitely smothered me as a kid and it continued into adulthood. Sadly, I believe her greatest pleasure in life is her children so she has trouble letting go and facing reality that we grow up. She isn't quite a helicopter parent but has some of that type of mindset that where she wants to stay in an unhealthy parental role too long instead of training her kids to be independent. Sometimes she'll still express this in various ways. Like if I say something insightful, she'll get this look on her face like she just witnessed a 5 year old prove Einstein's theory of relativity and say, "how did you know that?" Um, cuz I'm a 30+ year old man, Jesus. Or, in other ways, when I try to help guide her away from decisions that may be detrimental to her, she just won't really listen and consider. It may be a very big challenge as my parents continue to age and part of my breaking free will be to detach the hose and not allow my parents' dysfunctionalities to continue to make me neurotic. It's tricky because I want to have a good relationship with my parents but I tend to stay very private and not share a lot with them because I know they'll want to try and fix my problems or obsess or worry about them and want updates, etc. Then I sort of feel guilty about lying or hiding stuff from them even though I know it's my right and it also protects them from un-needed stress. I've definitely gotten better at setting boundaries for my parents though, so that's good.
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RufWarrior's Plan Last edited by DarkStar; May 8th, 2012 at 08:48 PM..
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#304
April 26th, 2012, 03:44 PM
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Thanks for that, I really enjoyed reading your IM post.
I remember the first time I read those pages in NMMNG back in October last year and thinking the same thing: "I don't have any of those postive attributes". Now I do feel like I have some of them, if not all of them to some degree. 
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After you become a man you will not have to belong anywhere. You will be able to CREATE your own tribe - nomorenice
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#305
April 26th, 2012, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
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After you become a man you will not have to belong anywhere. You will be able to CREATE your own tribe - nomorenice Last edited by Pinkerton85; April 26th, 2012 at 04:56 PM.. Reason: added more info
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#306
April 26th, 2012, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
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RufWarrior's Plan
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#307
April 26th, 2012, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
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RufWarrior's Plan
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#308
April 27th, 2012, 03:47 PM
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Attachments
Breaking Free Activity #4 (originally posted 1/30/12)
The following are a few examples of attachments Nice Guys use to try to get external approval. Note any of the ways in which you seek approval. Add to the list any behaviors that are uniquely you. Write down examples of each. Ask others for feedback about the ways in which they see you seeking approval. Having one's hair just right Being smart Having a pleasant, non-threatening voice Appearing unselfish Being different from other men Staying sober Being in good shape Being a great dancer Being a good lover Never getting angry Making other people happy Being a good worker Having a clean car Dressing well Being nice Respecting women Never offending anyone Appearing to be good Almost all of these apply to me in one way or another: 1) Having one's hair just right: I used to get self-conscious if I wasn't happy with my haircut, and and feel more confident when I did, but it was hard to find a haircut I was happy with. Now I just go with a buzz as it's pretty consistent. 2) Being smart: Or maybe being embarrassed when not being smart or knowledgeable about a topic. 3) Having a pleasant, non-threatening voice: This is a big one for me; particularly when saying hello or thank you to strangers, cashiers, on the phone, etc. I've been working on keeping a lower, natural tone of voice, but still catch myself slipping. 4) Appearing unselfish: Another big one. I've made a bad habit of putting others needs in front of mine. If anyone needs a favor, I'd typically drop whatever I'm doing to help them. In the moment I don't expect anything in return but I do recall being annoyed when not being offered help later with something I need, thinking well that's what friends do. So there is a covert contract there that even I had not been aware of. 5) Staying sober: For me, it's more shame/guilt that I don't stay sober when interacting with others that are sober or consume less. Also when I try to stay sober, I have been known to cave in to peer pressure fairly easily. Currently I am abstaining for a minimum of a month. Although I may abstain indefinitely as I focus on working through NMMNG and RufWarrior's guide. 6) Being in good shape: Again it's more shame that I haven't done this one enough. Although now that I've been getting in better shape, I do catch myself occasionally approval-seeking about it, perhaps subtly. 7) Being a great dancer: Again more like shame & embarrassment that I'm not a great one. 8) Being a good lover: I've overdone it with attention on her when she's not in the mood, in hopes of the attention being returned. I probably also do seek approval for it when I'm a good lover. 9) Never getting angry: Guilty. I generally tend to avoid conflict as a Nice Guy. But I also sometimes do get impulsively angry at things, especially things that are outside of my control. 10) Making other people happy: Yes, in particular doing favors for people or just not saying no. 11) Being nice: Check. 12) Respecting women: Yes 13) Never offending anyone: For sure, and that makes it difficult to set boundaries. 14) Appearing to be good: Yes. 15) Not being open about my tastes and preferences: An example is with music that is not mainstream. It doesn't usually get mentioned in answer to the question of "what kind of music do you like". As a result, I may have had trouble finding people with similar tastes. And when I did (in a woman) it made me view her as more rare, increasing fear of abandonment.
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RufWarrior's Plan Last edited by DarkStar; May 28th, 2012 at 11:51 AM..
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#309
April 27th, 2012, 04:51 PM
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Attachments
Breaking Free Activity #4 (revisited 4/27/12)
OK, obviously approval-seeking is a very important BFA topic. I have to be careful not to spend too much time on this one, as I could probably spend 3 months straight writing a dissertation on it. But I at least wanted to review it and add some stuff. It looks like my original post touched on every one in the Doc's list except for these: Being different from other men Being a good worker Having a clean car Dressing well But yes, I think these all affect me even though I didn't list them. I definitely think "Being different from other men" should have been included. As a NG, I don't want to look like the typical "jerk" to women. I also used to think the fact that I'm not a sports fan would be an attractive quality to women in general. Maybe I bought into the stereotype of women bitching about their men watching too much sports. In high school and even in college, I didn't really do much mainstream stuff like school activities. I think at the core of it was feeling like I wouldn't fit into those things or be accepted at them, but instead of challenging that assumption I think I was in denial and tried to act like I was too cool for it. Also, I think sometimes I just want to express a "different" opinion. I guess I feel like I'm a critical thinker and I can appreciate all sides to an issue. I'm rarely black and white about something, whereas I think many guys are, or perhaps they're just the most vocal ones in a debate. So I have to be careful when I express myself, am I doing it because my views are truly moderate, or am I just being a pushover so I don't make anyone angry? Being a good worker... sometimes I can be perfectionistic about my work, even my online posts or emails. I think I want all my bases covered so that no one can point out a mistake or something I overlooked, as if I'd be disapproved of if I screwed up on something or didn't make something clear enough. But in reality, if I forget to mention something or didn't complete a job well enough, anyone is always free to ask for clarification. It might even make my work more palatable. Having a clean car... hmm, I have a sports car that I love and I did get it for me, not for approval. (I held out a long time in spite of societal pressures to have a "nice car".) I do generally keep it pretty clean. It's wasn't very expensive nor something that I think most people would be impressed by, but it's something I love so much for me and I get a lot of enjoyment out of it. My core motivations behind it are healthy but I guess I have to be careful not let it become an attachment on top of that. I also kept my beat up old car that looks like a POS. That one is sort of the opposite. I don't take care of its appearance much at all. So I have to be careful not feeling ashamed about that one. Neither one makes me a good or bad person, although it's probably not a bad idea to keep the old one a little cleaner because that's part of taking care of myself. Dressing well... I don't think I dress all that well typically (not hideously, but just not as well as I'd like), and I think it can create a little toxic shame sometimes. On the other hand, when I do get some new threads I like, or when I'm wearing my favorite clothes, there can be a little extra swing in my step. I guess that's normal to a degree but just something to pay attention to. I treat myself to quality (not necessarily expensive) clothes because Little is worth nurturing but I am not my clothes.
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RufWarrior's Plan Last edited by DarkStar; May 28th, 2012 at 11:51 AM..
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#310
April 27th, 2012, 05:03 PM
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Attachments
Breaking Free Activity #4 (cont'd)
More attachments: Being modest... as a NG, I should know this one rarely earns points anyway. Being non-confrontational, agreeable, not rejecting people or saying no, and giving approval to get it. These are also covert contracts!  Man, this list should go on forever. Might just have to say it's good for now and add more when they come up.
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RufWarrior's Plan Last edited by DarkStar; May 28th, 2012 at 11:51 AM..
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#311
April 28th, 2012, 10:44 AM
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Letting Go of Attachment to Outcome
Breaking Free Activity #5
Consider this: If you did not care what people thought of you, how would you live your life differently? If you were not concerned with getting the approval of women, how would your relationships with the opposite sex be different? I would be free to do as I please. I could disagree with people both on important things and just conversational things. I would be more efficient with my time because I wouldn't have to consider so many unknown forces that are driving my actions. I wouldn't speak in a "pleasant, non-threatening voice" so often. I wouldn't smile so much. I probably wouldn't think people are better than me or more importantly, care. I could feel free to get all the way in and to be a good ender. I could set the tone and take the lead. I could disconnect the emotional hose, being free to be in a good mood or a bad mood, no matter what type of mood the woman is in. I'd probably get more sex. Awww yeah. But I'd probably also not care so much as the dating moratorium has proven to me. Many of these things would lead to meeting more people and connecting with them better, more life experiences. I'd pay less for negotiable items and end up making better purchases. I'd say that if I didn't care what people thought of me and if I wasn't concerned with getting approval, the long term effects would be extremely profound and I'd have massively more satisfaction, success, happiness and fulfillment from life. A couple other good #5's for reference: Belief10's BFA #5 Pinkerton's BFA #5 EDITED TO ADD: Dr. Glover's Article on Attachment to Outcome
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RufWarrior's Plan Last edited by DarkStar; May 28th, 2012 at 11:58 AM..
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#312
April 28th, 2012, 01:10 PM
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Hiding My Perceived Flaws
Breaking Free Activity #6
Nice Guys believe they must hide or distract attention from any perceived shortcoming: - If they forget something - If they are late - If they break something - If they don't understand something - If they do something wrong - If they are depressed - If they are in pain - If they generally mess up The Nice Guy's need to hide is often the most pronounced in areas that are just part of being human and alive. - That they are sexual - That they have bodily functions - That they are getting older - That they are losing their hair - That they have needs - That they are imperfect Look over the list above. Write down examples of situations in which you have tried to hide or distract attention from any of these perceived flaws. How effective do you think you are in keeping these things hidden from the people you love? I'd say an important one for me is when I don't understand something. I love Pinkerton's post on that: http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/forum...&postcount=167 This has held me back in work and school to some degree. It just makes everything more draining and inefficient because something that you could have solved in a few minutes can take hours if you have to figure out everything yourself. Sometimes the struggle is beneficial as a learning tool; many times, however, it's just a waste of resources. In the long run, I'm probably not very effective at hiding this. If I'm depressed... another one I hide. I'm usually all smiles until I can't take it. I don't know how good I am at hiding it because without letting out feelings as they arise, they'll eventually spew out in undesirable ways. If I'm in pain... I tend to try to hide this one too. But my recent injury was an example of where I manned up and asked for help. That I'm sexual... yup, I hide that too. After studying PUA stuff I've gotten better at flirting to some degree but without having the inner stuff handled, it's still not enough. In high school and college basically all my girlfriends picked me. It definitely didn't lead to abundance thinking. In the end, a guy can't hide his sexuality if he wants to have sex with the girls he's really into; if he doesn't express it up front, then when it does come out, it can come across as creepy. I'm sure breaking free and being comfortable in my own skin will do wonders for expressing my sexuality in attractive ways. That I'm getting older... I sort of pride myself on the fact that I look younger than I am. But there is some toxic shame in this issue, that I haven't come as far as I would have liked by my 30's. That I'm imperfect... yes, I hide this for sure. I can't think of any good examples right now, other than ways that have already been discussed in this thread. I'm not sure how good I am at hiding it but even if I am good, I remember the book said something to the effect that it's easier to connect to people's rough edges anyway. A few of my friends have later revealed to me they "hated" me when they first met me. Perhaps I came across as "Mr. Perfect" and that's annoying, especially when you can tell it's fake.
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RufWarrior's Plan Last edited by DarkStar; May 28th, 2012 at 11:59 AM..
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#313
April 28th, 2012, 04:54 PM
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Unconditional Love
Breaking Free Activity #7
Consider these questions: Do you believe that people can see your human imperfections and still love you? How would you be different if you knew the people who care about you would never leave you or stop loving you -- no matter what? Rationally, I believe I can be loved just as I am, warts and all. However, my amygdala is still being trained to believe this concept. Part of me still believes that people love me because I'm nice. I guess I have to be careful about the difference between being nice and being Nice. If I truly believed that I people would never leave me or stop loving me no matter what, that would probably cure the approval-seeking behaviors from BFA #6. I would no longer be the Teflon Man (p46). It would stop the cover-ups, "drawing on my account", fixing, DEER response, turning the tables, and building of walls, as described in p46-47. I'd probably have a lot less anxiety. I'd be happier and more fulfilled and it would generally just remove a lot of bullshit from swirling around in my head.
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RufWarrior's Plan Last edited by DarkStar; May 28th, 2012 at 12:01 PM..
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#314
April 29th, 2012, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
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My BFE's Breaking free of my Addictions "The greatest revenge is Massive Success." - Tony Robbins - Drives me to be successful with this process. "Never make someone a priority when they only see you as an option." - Shockwave - Really helps me put things into perspective.
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#315
April 29th, 2012, 01:23 PM
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Setting the Tone and Taking the Lead
So I read Setting the Tone and Taking the Lead, and it is a great article. I don't really have much to comment on, other than that I basically just agree with everything he said.
I think the 6 pages of thread comments can for the most part be skipped though. Most of it was dissenting opinion and people trying to enlighten those with dissenting opinion. I'm surprised that any guy who has read NMMNG could disagree, or suggest that society won't stand for us guys taking the lead, etc. When I see a guy on here with over 1000 posts protest one of the generally accepted core NMMNG philosophies, I'm always curious so I check out the threads they started. Usually I find either no Breaking Free thread, or a Breaking Free thread that was abandoned after the first dozen BFA's or less. Hmm. Anyway, there were a few really interesting follow-up posts though, such as the quote in post #31 on the idea that we don't need to try to become "alpha" males, and post #57 about the comparison of relationships to business meetings.
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RufWarrior's Plan Last edited by DarkStar; April 29th, 2012 at 04:17 PM..
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