Putting Women First

[WarriorMonk]

I'm tired of feeling responsible for other people's feelings. As much as I consciously try to break free of that belief, I continue to act as if it were true. And as long as I've been working on putting myself first, I continue to act as if I come second to the needs and wants of girls.

Granted, I can give myself a little credit. I've become pretty good at asserting myself with family members, coworkers, and male friends. It's just those damn girls I still roll over for.

For example, last Sunday, I had plans to go with a meetup group to a hot spring, and was really looking forward to it. But then Jill invited me to coffee with her friends that morning, and Katie invited me to lunch that afternoon. I accepted both invitations, telling myself that I couldn't possibly say no. That might make the girls think I don't like them, and hurt their feelings or something. Clearly, I wasn't as worried about cancelling my plans for the hot spring.

The same thing is coming up again, as I'm considering ending things with Terri and Katie. I start thinking about what I'm going to say, and how they'll react, and my heart starts beating faster. I get really nervous. I'm afraid that they'll be hurt, and get angry at me.

And there it is, I suppose, at least in part. I'm afraid of people's anger, especially that of women. I would say that probably comes from my childhood, growing up with a mother that was almost always angry about something. It probably was rarely actually about me, but I felt like it was at the time. At first, I think I tried to be the perfect little kid in order to make her happy, and I started to believe that my worth was based on how "good" I could be, and how well I could perform. When I got into my teens, I guess I figured out that I could never make her happy, so I learned to avoid her instead, and I began isolating myself in my room and interacting with her as little as possible. The same scenario played out in my marriage. My ex-wife, a few years into our marriage, turned into a chronically angry woman. I stopped talking to her as much as possible, because it became unsafe, but at the same time, I tried as hard as I could to please her and keep her in a good mood. I took over 100% of the household chores, in addition to providing 100% of the family income, so she could isolate herself in the bedroom every night and hopefully calm down. I came home from work early very frequently, at the risk of my job, to take over dealing with the kids, because she'd "had enough". When she was upset, which was often, I assumed it was because I hadn't done enough somehow. I completely enmeshed myself in her, and allowed my sense of self-worth to be ruled by her moods.

So perhaps I continue to believe that a woman's anger, and maybe even her hurt feelings, equals some kind of failure on my part. It is irrational, yes, but it's deeply engrained in me, and I don't know how to get rid of it. This faulty belief leads me to act in ways that have little risk of upsetting a woman, and resorting to people-pleasing behaviors. I have a hard time ending a date, even when I know I need to be somewhere else, or get to bed. I find myself unable to tell a woman "no" when she asks me out, even if that means cancelling other plans or giving up my precious alone time. And I am absolutely paralyzed at the thought of telling a woman that I'm not interested in dating her anymore.

What do I do? How do I break free?

[rebirth]

Originally Posted by WarriorMonk

And there it is, I suppose, at least in part. I'm afraid of people's anger, especially that of women. I would say that probably comes from my childhood, growing up with a mother that was almost always angry about something. It probably was rarely actually about me, but I felt like it was at the time. At first, I think I tried to be the perfect little kid in order to make her happy, and I started to believe that my worth was based on how "good" I could be, and how well I could perform. When I got into my teens, I guess I figured out that I could never make her happy, so I learned to avoid her instead, and I began isolating myself in my room and interacting with her as little as possible. The same scenario played out in my marriage. My ex-wife, a few years into our marriage, turned into a chronically angry woman. I stopped talking to her as much as possible, because it became unsafe, but at the same time, I tried as hard as I could to please her and keep her in a good mood. I took over 100% of the household chores, in addition to providing 100% of the family income, so she could isolate herself in the bedroom every night and hopefully calm down. I came home from work early very frequently, at the risk of my job, to take over dealing with the kids, because she'd "had enough". When she was upset, which was often, I assumed it was because I hadn't done enough somehow. I completely enmeshed myself in her, and allowed my sense of self-worth to be ruled by her moods.

So perhaps I continue to believe that a woman's anger, and maybe even her hurt feelings, equals some kind of failure on my part. It is irrational, yes, but it's deeply engrained in me, and I don't know how to get rid of it. This faulty belief leads me to act in ways that have little risk of upsetting a woman, and resorting to people-pleasing behaviors. I have a hard time ending a date, even when I know I need to be somewhere else, or get to bed. I find myself unable to tell a woman "no" when she asks me out, even if that means cancelling other plans or giving up my precious alone time. And I am absolutely paralyzed at the thought of telling a woman that I'm not interested in dating her anymore.

What do I do? How do I break free?

WM, your history almost reads word-for-word as mine. I've done a lot of therapy and I understand that my fear of making women angry is precisely due to that little boy in me becoming frightened. And that I would do anything possible to avoid that from happening so all my other parts would work overtime trying to please others so that I wouldn't be scared. This was the formation of my overactive nice guy part. It came into being in an attempt to protect me and try to secure for me the love that didn't flow from my mother.

What I learned more deeply is that because I did not receive unconditional love from my mother and because she was so unpredictable with her anger and not nurturing, this little boy of mine did not feel loved. In therapy, I have learned to "parent" and soothe this part of me in the face of anger. I have learned to love this little boy part of me, as well as the rest of all my parts.

But there is more to the story... You see, I was taught that people "cause" others to get angry. My mother insisted that I was the cause of her anger. And that perverted way of looking at the world is largely a factor of the feminization of society where men let women off the hook time and time again when they blame their guy for making them feel a negative emotion. I have "unlearned" this falacy and now understand that people get angry purely because of their own shit (unless of course you are abusive or mean). Usually anger and blame is due to the other person's fear or shame. And these behaviors are attempts to dump their load of emotional baggage at your feet and in your face.

Acceptance of that psychological fact has freed me from taking responsibility. Does that mean that everyone else looks at the world that way? No, I still find the majority of women unable to avoid blaming their anger on the behavior of the other. But, I have decided that I won't own that crap and won't choose relationships with people who do that anymore.

[Boyd]

Originally Posted by WarriorMonk

What do I do? How do I break free?

Do a 180. Blurt shit out, and let the chips fall where they may. What kind of danger do you figure you're in, anyway? What damage can these women do?

It's an excellent test of character to be able to speak without your PC filter on, and have the recipient take what you said, filter out the edgy noise, and hear what you're meaning in the statement, and respond to THAT instead of the edgy noise.

That being said, if a woman just blurted to you without her PC filter on and it came out edgy and noisy, how would YOU respond? Would YOU be able to see what she's really saying, what truth nugget exists in her angst? Or are you afraid of that out of both yourself AND women?

Boyd

[Boyd]

Originally Posted by rebirth

I still find the majority of women unable to avoid blaming their anger on the behavior of the other.

To tell the truth, I still find the majority of MEN unable to avoid blaming their anger and unhappiness on the behavior of the other, too. This place is a rare haven of people who are pretty responsible, and even at that, there's a small % of people here who look internally instead of pointing externally.

I think this is a general societal thing, encouraged by media in TV shows and movies, and by the legal system, too.

Boyd

[BubbaHeat]

Originally Posted by WarriorMonk

II accepted both invitations, telling myself that I couldn't possibly say no.

Of course you can. And from what I've read about game you are likely to strengthen your position by saying no.

Why not ask one (or both) of them to join you at the springs?

[TophFletch]

Originally Posted by Boyd

Do a 180. Blurt shit out, and let the chips fall where they may. What kind of danger do you figure you're in, anyway? What damage can these women do?

The way I see it by blurting shit out that you know they might not want to hear, chances are eventually see you as more IM thus more attractive. That's what makes it easy for me to be myself. Sometimes they get pissed. Sometimes they immediately say "oh, sorry, your right," but if nothing else know that they know that you're not a doormat but a man with integrity and self-respect.

Like planting seeds sooner or later they respect you.

[Boyd]

Originally Posted by TophFletch

if nothing else know that they know that you're not a doormat but a man with integrity and self-respect.

+1

Hear hear. Many healthy feminine women are turned on by men who put themselves at risk to protect their values, their beliefs, and their loved ones.

Boyd

[kochi]

I think perhaps it's also fair to accept that ya, hurting people does suck, NG issues or not. And yes it does bring about your own demons but that doesn't changed what needs to be done and the effect. It is the price YOU pay.

[WarriorMonk]

Originally Posted by rebirth

Usually anger and blame is due to the other person's fear or shame. And these behaviors are attempts to dump their load of emotional baggage at your feet and in your face.

Excellent insight, thanks. The trick is remembering this in the moment.

Originally Posted by Boyd

Do a 180. Blurt shit out, and let the chips fall where they may. What kind of danger do you figure you're in, anyway? What damage can these women do?

Great question. There is no real danger from these women. I guess I'm more afraid of my own guilt, and feeling like a failure at the notion that I hurt or upset someone else. Even if I do blurt, and let the chips fall, I think I'm still going to feel guilt and shame if they're at all hurt or disappointed. It's that feeling right there, that SLB, that I need to get over. So is this a "it gets easier the more you do it" kind of thing?

Originally Posted by Boyd

That being said, if a woman just blurted to you without her PC filter on and it came out edgy and noisy, how would YOU respond? Would YOU be able to see what she's really saying, what truth nugget exists in her angst? Or are you afraid of that out of both yourself AND women?

I don't know. My tendency is to see the best in others, freely give them the benefit of the doubt, and forgive quickly. Maybe even to a fault. I generally am very understanding towards what women feel, want, and need. It's twisted, then, that I don't assume (or demand) that the same will be true in reverse.

[rebirth]

All these posts are good, supportive and well-intentioned. But I can tell you that if WM has the same level of fear that I had, he has got to deal with his parts that are afraid first. Simply saying simply to "blurt it out" is like telling a guy who is afraid of heights to stand on the edge of a 100 story building. WM are you in therapy?

[Boyd]

Originally Posted by WarriorMonk

Excellent insight, thanks. The trick is remembering this in the moment.

Re: Angry responses, the thing that helped me relax on them was to learn that when someone is angry, it's partially because emotionally they have two choices: Hurt/Sad, or Angry. Anger feels better, energetically, than hurt or sadness, so it makes sense that a person would lean towards what feels better in the moment.

Also, when someone is angry or hurt, it's one of the best times to see how they behave and what they're really made of. If they withdraw to deal with their emotions and are able to come back once the acuteness has worn off, they're a keeper. If they retreat and seethe and come back with ammo, or immediately blow a stack or burst into a crying jag (uncontrolled tears are okay, and different than a crying jag), release them back into the wild.

I actually LIKE to get new people in my life angry sometimes, because it tells me a LOT more than what I've learned in their nicey-nicey mode.

Great question. There is no real danger from these women. I guess I'm more afraid of my own guilt, and feeling like a failure at the notion that I hurt or upset someone else. Even if I do blurt, and let the chips fall, I think I'm still going to feel guilt and shame if they're at all hurt or disappointed. It's that feeling right there, that SLB, that I need to get over. So is this a "it gets easier the more you do it" kind of thing?

For me it was, although I was hurting so badly from my marriage ending that I also had gotten to a point where I didn't figure I could hurt much more, so I might as well make changes that I knew would hurt short term but pay off long term.

It was completely flooring to me when I first blurted my thoughts and feelings to my close buddy who just died (back when we were just beginning to become friends) and instead of him defending himself or jumping on my back, he said "you're probably right..." Just finding ONE person I could be completely honest to and have, basically, fogging come back to me was all it took to give me the strength to expand the practice in my life to others I spent time with. I remembered how amazingly awesome my friendship got with my buddy after we cut the PC crap and started really calling each other out on stuff, and that feeling kept me going through the anxiety of blurting with someone new.

These days, I blurt early and often with new people. Sometimes I feel a little self-conscious and fear that I've offended someone, but I then tell myself "that's up to them, we're both adults, we can talk it through if I offended them, and work things out" and I'm fine again. (and of course I'm willing to have that open-hearted discussion if they do bring it up)

I don't know. My tendency is to see the best in others, freely give them the benefit of the doubt, and forgive quickly. Maybe even to a fault. I generally am very understanding towards what women feel, want, and need. It's twisted, then, that I don't assume (or demand) that the same will be true in reverse.

So why are you afraid of their anger or hurt then? Wouldn't you just see the best in them for it, that they are a good person who saw the good bits of themselves reflected in you and that they are a good person because they display emotion that shows they feel a sense of loss?

Wouldn't it be worse if you blurted your feelings and they were indifferent towards you completely?

Yes, it would be nice if they'd see the sensitive guy inside of you and appreciate how hard it is for the sensitive guy to say something that hurts someone else, but wouldn't that sicken you in some way? I'd feel like it was Mommy looking at her little boy and going "awwwww, that's okay..."

Boyd

[Boyd]

Originally Posted by rebirth

All these posts are good, supportive and well-intentioned. But I can tell you that if WM has the same level of fear that I had, he has got to deal with his parts that are afraid first. Simply saying simply to "blurt it out" is like telling a guy who is afraid of heights to stand on the edge of a 100 story building. WM are you in therapy?

Perhaps he's got friends or family members who are more like a building a mere 6 inches off the ground.

We're not recommending he start blurting to his boss or to his (non-existent) SAHM wife who can take the kids and half+ his financial profile in a divorce, just recommending blurting in general.

Maybe even start out with saying something frank or potentially offensive to the teller at the grocery store who you'll never see again.

I do agree that therapy is great in terms of having someone to report your progress and goals to within a reasonable time frame, instead of letting things slide and slide and slide. I think WM has the tools, so maybe if he needs the deadlines to help him motivate improvements, consider finding a therapist to work with you.

Boyd

[nomorenice]

You may read about shaming language.

This language is deeply imprinted in men and women, unfortunately women have predator's role in this an they use it to control men but if you will become aware when shaming lang is in use - you may laugh it away or simply answer her with "this is bullshit".

You won't win such woman anyway unless she is capable to understand other people's opinion and accept other opinion than her own.

Be aware:
To please woman helps nothing. It only gives her consciousness that she has power over you and can have demands.

[Touch The Clouds]

Found this WM.

The Magic of Blurting

How many of us spend our lives holding back? We think of something funny to say but we don't say it because, well, what if they don't think it's funny? We bite our tongue. We hold back. We are afraid to simply blurt out what's on our mind.

"But what if they don't find what we have to say very interesting," men say. "That makes us nervous." Of course we are nervous! That is the great thing about moving out of our comfort zone. It is scary and new. And besides, I can't tell you how many women have told me they find it endearing when a man is nervous and doesn't try to hide it. It takes real strength to feel afraid and act anyway. It is the height of masculinity.

When you are talking to a woman, it is a great habit to always blurt out what is happening in the experience. In other words, name what is going on in that very moment. If you are nervous, say it. If she seems nervous, say it. If you like her, say it. If you think she likes you, say it. If you desire her, say it. If you want to see her again, say it. If you want her to be your lover, say it. If she seems indifferent or quiet, say it. And even if you run out of things to say, well then, say that.

This will get you out of your head, allowing you to be fully present in the interaction with her. Try not to think too much, for it doesn't really help. Just stay centered in your body and say whatever is going on with you. Blurt out everything you are experiencing in the moment.

Never leave anything to chance. Never assume, that by your actions alone, she will know what you are thinking. Don't imply. Say it straight. As in "Well, I just ran out of things to say... tell me something interesting about you." As in, "You know, for some reason... there is something about you that makes me kind of nervous. " As in, "You are absolutely delightful to me... I would love you to see you again."

When you describe exactly what you want to experience with her, you essentially create it. By naming it, you make it real. What was not there before, now is. Or more precisely, what was unseen before, is now seen. For instance, if you smile at her and lower your voice for her and her alone, and say, "Can you feel that in the air? The electricity between us?" well then, if she didn't feel it before, she will feel it now.

This is part of the dance... the dancing in the moment... staying in your body, blurting out whatever you feel... creating the moment.

~ Zan Perrion

[WarriorMonk]

Originally Posted by rebirth

All these posts are good, supportive and well-intentioned. But I can tell you that if WM has the same level of fear that I had, he has got to deal with his parts that are afraid first. Simply saying simply to "blurt it out" is like telling a guy who is afraid of heights to stand on the edge of a 100 story building. WM are you in therapy?

No. I have higher priorities in my budget right now. Although therapy would probably help, I'm going to do my best to practice blurting on my own first, and see how I do.

Originally Posted by Touch The Clouds

Found this WM.

The Magic of Blurting

How many of us spend our lives holding back? We think of something funny to say but we don't say it because, well, what if they don't think it's funny? We bite our tongue. We hold back. We are afraid to simply blurt out what's on our mind.

"But what if they don't find what we have to say very interesting," men say. "That makes us nervous." Of course we are nervous! That is the great thing about moving out of our comfort zone. It is scary and new. And besides, I can't tell you how many women have told me they find it endearing when a man is nervous and doesn't try to hide it. It takes real strength to feel afraid and act anyway. It is the height of masculinity.

When you are talking to a woman, it is a great habit to always blurt out what is happening in the experience. In other words, name what is going on in that very moment. If you are nervous, say it. If she seems nervous, say it. If you like her, say it. If you think she likes you, say it. If you desire her, say it. If you want to see her again, say it. If you want her to be your lover, say it. If she seems indifferent or quiet, say it. And even if you run out of things to say, well then, say that.

This will get you out of your head, allowing you to be fully present in the interaction with her. Try not to think too much, for it doesn't really help. Just stay centered in your body and say whatever is going on with you. Blurt out everything you are experiencing in the moment.

Never leave anything to chance. Never assume, that by your actions alone, she will know what you are thinking. Don't imply. Say it straight. As in "Well, I just ran out of things to say... tell me something interesting about you." As in, "You know, for some reason... there is something about you that makes me kind of nervous. " As in, "You are absolutely delightful to me... I would love you to see you again."

When you describe exactly what you want to experience with her, you essentially create it. By naming it, you make it real. What was not there before, now is. Or more precisely, what was unseen before, is now seen. For instance, if you smile at her and lower your voice for her and her alone, and say, "Can you feel that in the air? The electricity between us?" well then, if she didn't feel it before, she will feel it now.

This is part of the dance... the dancing in the moment... staying in your body, blurting out whatever you feel... creating the moment.

~ Zan Perrion

Loved this! Easier said than done, but I feel like it's something that can be learned with practice. So practice is what I shall do.